Dear Terry,
I will answer your email in
purple:
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, July 14, 2008 1:43
AM
Subject: Salvation through Christ's
death, resurrection and ascension ??
Greetings,
I lack sufficient time to get too
deeply into all this, but I have found several of Ron's statements in
his July 11 message to be highly questionable (to put it
mildly):
> the process of salvation
through Christ's death, resurrection and ascension.
> your faith is finished upon salvation
or revelation of what Christ Jesus has done and upon your passage
through the door of Christ's death resurrection and
ascension.
> all people are saved by the death,
resurrection and ascension of Christ Jesus.
> We are save today as we were immediately after the
ascension of Christ by his death, resurrection and ascension as are all
people.
> the only way out was to
repent for their evil deed and follow Christ through the door into the
Kingdom by his death, resurrection and ascension.
> We are not "accepted" by any means other
than by our own death, resurrection and ascension with
Christ.
> Christ finished our
faith upon our passage through the door of his death, resurrection and
ascension provided by the Grace of God in the body and works of Christ
Jesus, namely his death, resurrection and ascension.
> Therefore the gospel message of Peter and
Paul are the same. Salvation comes to Jews and Gentiles by the same
manner and means forever and in all time periods and
phases.
Where exactly is this found in
the Bible? My Bible tells me that Jesus' shed blood is the ONLY
means by which sins are forgiven, and that our acceptance of HIM as Lord
and Savior by FAITH leads to personal salvation for each person who
BELIEVES in Him. If we believe (have faith or hope)
only we are most miserable: "1 Corinthians 15:19 If in this life
only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable." Faith is
believing, faith is seeking, faith is believing that the thing you are
searching for exists it is the substance of that which is unseen.
But Grace is the possession of the thing which you once sought,
possession of your own soul in confidence, the possession of eternal
life your entrance into the Kingdom of Heaven: "Hebrews
11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the
evidence of things not seen." "1 Peter 1:9 Receiving the end of
your faith, even the salvation of your souls." "Hebrews 12:2
Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for
the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame,
and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God." Paul said to
get eternal life now not hope for it in the after life: "1 Timothy 6:12
Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto
thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many
witnesses." This is where we have come by the body of Christ from a
state of death to sit down with him in the heavenly places: "Ephesians
1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in
Christ:
Ephesians 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he
raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the
heavenly places,
Ephesians 2:6 And hath raised us up together,
and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:" This is
past tense. This is where I am presently sitting. This has occurred
already.
Terry, the shedding of blood is a reference to
the old testament need for a sacrifice for the forgiveness of sins but
mere forgiveness of sin is only one aspect of salvation which also
includes your entrance to the Kingdom of Heaven. And short of
rebirth into the kingdom of God or Heaven your sins remain. Because you
are to participate or be baptized with the baptism of Christ who
tasted death resurrection and ascension for every person. In other
words you can experience what Christ experienced for you. "Matthew 20:22
But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able
to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the
baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are
able.
Matthew 20:23 And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink
indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized
with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give,
but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father." We
can indeed drink and taste and experience the death, resurrection and
ascension of Christ as we are in him at all times and what ever he
experiences we experience.
The fact that Christ died, that
He was resurrected, and that He ascended into heaven are very important
things that give Christians hope unto eternity, but these things are NOT
the means by which we are saved. Indeed, it's highly absurd to
suggest that Christians have already been resurrected and have ascended
into heaven with Jesus. I don't know what kind of body Ron has,
but I'm still dragging around the same old stinking, aching, sinful
carcass that I've always had. And I certainly haven't "ascended"
anywhere in THIS old body. These are very wonderful things things
that I greatly anticipate and look forward to, but they haven't happened
yet. Dear Terry, you are saying what most modern
Christians believe and they believe this because the gospel of what
Christ really did is not preached to them because the preachers are not
saved either. We are now at the real heart of the question that is being
addressed by this entire email chain. You have picked up on what I am
really saying and the others are avoiding it. If we enter the "Kingdom
of God and Heaven" and "saved" only after the body dies then we would
not know the truth about how many means of salvation there are or how
many Kingdoms there are or how many people there are. But we do get
saved now and we get into the Kingdom of Heaven now with our present
bodies that we say hello to right here on earth. Most Christians
erroneously believe that only the body of Christ was crucified and
resurrected and ascended but if that were true there would be no
salvation at all or entry into the Kingdom of Heaven. Today "Christians"
have the look of righteousness but deny the power of Christ. What is the
power - to operate upon every thing in the cosmos with his body. The
body of Christ is not a rock but a container, a vessel which contains
all space and time and all things in space and time. That is why all
things have been reconciled unto God. You say you still got an old body,
you may indeed but it is because you have not let the power of Christ be
exercised over it because you have not yet perceived what he has done to
it along with all things in the cosmos. But then neither are you born
again because you could not put new life into an old body: "Mark 2:21-22
No man also seweth a piece of new cloth on an old garment: else
the new piece that filled it up taketh away from the old, and the rent
is made worse.
22 And no man putteth new wine into old bottles:
else the new wine doth burst the bottles, and the wine is spilled, and
the bottles will be marred: but new wine must be put into new bottles."
If you had new life in an old body it would burst. You may presently be
experiencing the holy spirit and that is where many people stop but that
is not being reborn into the Kingdom. If you keep seeking rebirth into
the Kingdom the Holy Spirit will take you there.
Terry, the shed blood is just one part of the
salvation experience. If Christ were not risen from the dead his shed
blood would have been in vain. In fact this is why no other man could do
the same for us. It was Christ's power to rise that made his blood
effective for us. "John 10:17-18 Therefore doth my Father love me,
because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.
18 No
man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay
it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I
received of my Father." Not only have you been crucified unto
death but you have been resurrected and ascended with Christ
because Christ contained all things in his body including you and I and
the galaxies: "Colossians 1:19-22 For it pleased the Father that
in him should all fulness dwell; 20 And, having made peace through
the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by
him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. 21
And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by
wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled 22 In the body of his
flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and
unreproveable in his sight:" What things are in the body of Christ? All
things in space and time. All things have been operated upon by Christ
in his death, resurrection and ascension. "Colossians 2:8-12 Beware lest
any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the
tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after
Christ. 9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead
bodily.10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all
principality and power: 11 In whom also ye are circumcised with
the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins
of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: 12 Buried with him in
baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the
operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead."
Terry you call it absurd that Christ has
operated upon the whole cosmos with his body wherein all things can
experience the death resurrection and ascension into heaven yet you have
been deceived by the rudiments of the world which say that only Christ
himself was raised upon his own resurrection and only Christ ascended
into heaven upon his own ascension but I testify with Paul and Peter and
scripture that indeed what has happened to Christ has happened unto the
entire cosmos for the entire cosmos is in the body of Christ for in him
DWELLETH ALL THE FULNESS OF THE GODHEAD BODILY or in his body dwells all
things. Those in fact who do not drink of the cup of the baptism of Christ to experience his death
resurrection and ascension are still under condemnation for they have
not believed in the power of Christ to deliver them through the door of
his body and passion into the Kingdom of Heaven.
It is simply not good enough to believe that
Christ died on the cross and was resurrected and ascended into heaven if
you do not appropriate that for yourself. Those that do not put
themselves on the cross with Christ believe it is not necessary that
they die with Christ. If you don't die with him your sins remain. Well,
if you die with Christ on the cross, why not resurrect with him? And if
you resurrect with Christ, who is to stop you from ascending into heaven
with him? Not me! If you are in Christ at one point you are in him at
all points. So you are where Christ is right now. "John
17:20-26 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also
which shall believe on me through their word; 21 That they all may
be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be
one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. 22
And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they
may be one, even as we are one: 23 I in them, and thou in me, that
they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou
hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast
given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which
thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the
world. 25 O righteous Father, the world hath not known
thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent
me. 26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare
it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in
them." Now Terry, I am presently with Jesus Christ where he is so you
now have a witness that says this is indeed possible in this life right
now for all mankind.
Now, my baptism by immersion 35 years ago was a SIGN of my
identification with Christ's death, burial and resurrection, but it was
entirely symbolic, and I did NOT obtain salvation as a result of that
simple act (deed, work) of obedience. I was saved BEFORE I was
baptized! You are partially correct. Water baptism
is entirely a symbolic sign of what you should have
experienced in and through the body of Christ. You should have
experienced Christ's death, resurrection and ascension prior to water
baptism. No matter, you can do it again if you like after you are
baptized in the body of Christ. You are partially correct again, you did
not obtain salvation as a result of that simple symbolic act of
obedience to Christ's command to be baptized. But how were you saved
before if you were not baptized with fire or the crucifixion death
resurrection and ascension of Christ Jesus? I presume you think that
faith is the end of Christianity. That is indeed what most lost
Christians believe because they deny the power of Christ to do anything
by save himself until some future time when he returns or until we see
him in death. This is all incorrect theology that denies the power of
Christ to operate over the world with his body. "2 Timothy 3:2-7
For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters,
proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, 3
Without natural affection, rucebreakers, false accusers,
incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good, 4 Traitors,
heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God; 5
Having a form of godliness, but denying the power
thereof: from such turn away.6 For of this sort are they
which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins,
led away with divers lusts, 7 Ever learning, and never able to
come to the knowledge of the truth." Does this not sound like our modern
churches? Are we not "ever learning" and arguing over all kinds of stuff
like how many gospels, how many people, how many apostles, how many
Kingdoms and who goes to which one? Are ever coming to a knowledge of
the truth? Do we really see what Christ is done? Oh yeah we are being
good people in the form of godliness, but do we know or do we deny the
power of Godliness in Christ to redeem the world right now? I say get
away from doubt and follow Christ all the way to lay hold on eternal
life in the Kingdom of Heaven right now and stay away from endless
learning and disputations that lead to nowhere. There is one God, one
Kingdom, one Savior, One means of salvation, One door, the death
resurrection and ascension, and one people or sheep fold and one
shepherd.
Can a believer saved by grace loose his salvation? A person saved by grace is not a "believer"
but is a "possessor" of the perfect state
of "grace."
That's news to me. Jesus told me to BELIEVE, and I did
(and still do). That makes me a "believer", no? :-) There is a distinct difference between believing and
knowing or possessing. You are saved by Grace through Faith. But you are
not merely saved by belief alone because the Old Testament was of faith
alone but now we have grace or an open door made by Christ. But Faith is
still required to go through it. The old testament only had faith but no
grace in the form of a door. "Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye
saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:"
If you are saved you are not in a state of
Faith for if you possess something why are you still hoping to receive
it? "Romans 8:22-25 For we know that the whole creation groaneth
and travaileth in pain together until now. 23 And not only they,
but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we
ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the
redemption of our body.
24 For we are saved by hope:
but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet
hope for? 25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with
patience wait for it."
The whole creation groaneth until the age of when Christ
opened the door that no man can shut which is right now. But one must go
through it. It is not good enough just to believe there is a door or
that Christ is the door. One must actually go through the door. And we
hope that one day we will indeed go through the door. I did hope like
you until 33 years ago when I went through the door to my
amazement. I no longer hope in faith for that which I wanted but I now
possess in a perfect state of grace that which I hoped for thanks be to
Christ Jesus. I hoped patiently and one day I received that which I
hoped for and do see it and no longer hope for it but praise God for it
and want all others to have it as was intended by God for all
mankind.
A believer is one who is following Christ
in faith that he will one day find that Kingdom that Christ talks
about. But once he goes through the door into the Kingdom opened by
the death, resurrection and ascension of Christ he possesses his own
soul in confidence and he fills all space and time and becomes
eternal, hence Christ's statement, "He that believeth in me shall
never die." He that is eternal cannot then become un-eternal. One
who has entered the Kingdom by and through the death resurrection of
Christ is the possessor of all space and time and the Kingdom.
Salvation means eternal life which by definition cannot be lost or
it would not be eternal. If it were any other way salvation or
eternal life would not be salvation but temporary forgiveness. But
temporary forgiveness and eternal life and/or salvation are not the
same thing.
My main argument with what I have been
reading between the parties is that if you are born again,
translated into the Kingdom of God's dear Son, sitting in the
heavenly places with Christ, eating of the tree in the midst of
paradise, possessing your own soul in confidence, filling of
all space and time and containing all space and time within your
body, why would you be concerned about who we should read first. I
believe that Paul would say, am I Christ, is Apollos Christ, no some
water and some plant and some harvest but all are of Christ.
Therefore, we don't have multiple gospels, one for Jews, one for
Gentiles, one preached by Paul and one preached by Peter, etc.,
etc., etc.
Can anybody here provide a scripture passage that says a
Christian must go "through the door into the Kingdom opened by the
death, resurrection and ascension of Christ" in order to "possess his
own soul in confidence and fill all space and time and become
eternal"? If the Bible version Ron uses says these things, then I
would really like to know which version that is. None of the
versions I've read say any such thing!
"John 10:7-9 Then said
Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of
the sheep. 8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers:
but the sheep did not hear them. 9 I am the door: by me if
any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find
pasture." I do go in and out and I have been through the door
which is the body of Christ crucified dead buried, resurrected and
ascended. "Luke 21:17-19 And ye shall be hated of all men for my
name's sake. 18 But there shall not an hair of your head perish.
19 In your patience possess ye your souls." All
these things and more are contained in the King James version from which
I have used herein.
we are all in Christ but we all do not know
it. We should be about telling everyone how and why they are in
Christ Jesus and that they can live forever as a result of his
death, resurrection and ascension raising all things into the
Kingdom of Heaven reconciling all things unto
God.
We are all in Christ? EVERYONE?? This outlandish
statement is the most disturbing of all. The Bible does NOT teach
that all men will be saved. If Ron actually believes this, then he
is terribly deceived . . .
I did not say all men would
be saved. I said all are in Christ because the body of Christ does
contain all things and must contain all things or we would not be
there either. Just because Christ contains all men and the fact that God
loves all mankind does not mean that all will go through the door opened
by Christ for any one of many reasons. It is our job to go through the
door and then to tell others about it so they may go though it into the
Kingdom of God. "John 3:16 For God so loved the world,
that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him
should not perish, but have everlasting life." "1 Timothy 2:1-6
I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers,
intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; 2 For
kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and
peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. 3 For this is good
and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4 Who will
have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the
truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between
God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 Who gave himself a ransom for
all, to be testified in due time."
God and Christ therefore will
have all mankind to be saved. But many will have one of many reasons why
they did not go through the door opened by Christ into the Kingdom of
Heaven. Some will say they believed but did not do. "Matthew 7:20-28
Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. 21 Not
every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom
of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not
prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy
name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess
unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work
iniquity. 24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of
mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his
house upon a rock: 25 And the rain descended, and the floods came,
and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it
was founded upon a rock. 26 And every one that heareth these
sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish
man, which built his house upon the sand: 27 And the rain
descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that
house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it. 28 And it came
to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished
at his doctrine:"
Terry, why are you astonished
at my testimony? Why were the people astonished at the doctrine of
Christ? Is it not because they did not believe it. Is this not the
condition of the modern church? Do they use scripture to exclude people
and make excuses for themselves? They say all kinds of things about
Christ and make all kinds of wonderful theology and make long arguments
using the scripture but do they really believe in what Christ has done
with his body? And have they applied it unto themselves?
Terry Burnett
Thank you for this
opportunity to get to the heart of what we have been talking about for
days in this email chain. I pray that God will use it and that it not
return to him void. God bless you and your family.
Sincerely,
Ron Avery
PS If you
truly want to know more about this you may get my book at www.AlienPhysics.com You will not
be disappointed.